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Old 9th August 2007   #1
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 238
Default ''Be yourselves - order what you want''

There was an interesting post on this forum a while back, which contained excerpts from a book by anthropologist Leonard Shlain, in which he noted that since the dawn of time, men have been hardwired to appreciate full-figured women, and that women have been similarly hardwired to have a passion for food.

I thought of those fascinating excerpts from Shlain's book today, when I came across the following article from The New York Times:

It's riddled with mixed messages (of course), as if the author couldn't understand the obvious facts of the story that he himself was covering, which are:

-that women love food; and that
-men enjoy seeing women loving food.

But still, it's a fascinating admission from the mass media. Here are the relevant portions:

Be Yourselves, Girls, Order the Rib-Eye

Published: August 9, 2007

MARTHA FLACH mentioned meat twice in her profile: “I love architecture, The New Yorker, dogs ... steak for two and the Sunday puzzle.”...

The repetition worked. On her first date with Austin Wilkie, they ate steak frites. A year later, after burgers at the Corner Bistro in Greenwich Village, he proposed. This March, the rehearsal dinner was at Keens Steakhouse on West 36th Street, and the wedding menu included mini-cheeseburgers and more steak.

Ms. Wilkie was a vegetarian in her teens, and even wore a “Meat Is Murder” T-shirt. But by her 30s, she had started eating cow. By the time she placed the personal ad, she had come to realize that ordering steak on a first date had the potential to sate appetites not only of the stomach but of the heart.

Red meat sent a message that she was “unpretentious and down to earth and unneurotic,” she said, “that I’m not obsessed with my weight ...and I don’t have any food issues.”...

Salad, it seems, is out. Gusto, medium rare, is in.

Restaurateurs and veterans of the dating scene say that for many women, meat is no longer murder. Instead, meat is strategy. “I’ve been shocked at the number of women actually ordering steak,” said Michael Stillman, vice president of concept development for the Smith & Wollensky Restaurant Group, which opened the restaurant Quality Meats in April 2006 on West 58th Street. He said Quality Meats’ contemporary design and menu, including extensive seafood offerings, were designed to attract more women than a traditional steakhouse. “But the meat is appealing to them, much more than what I saw two or three years ago at our other restaurants,” Mr. Stillman said. “They are going for our bone-in sirloin and our cowboy-cut rib steak.”...

But others, especially those who are thin, say ordering a salad displays an unappealing mousiness.

“It seems wimpy, insipid, childish,” said Michelle Heller, 34, a copy editor at TV Guide. “I don’t want to be considered vapid and uninteresting.”...

In fact, red meat on a date has become such an effective statement of self-acceptance that even a vegetarian like Sloane Crosley, a publicist at Random House, sometimes longs to order a burger.

“Being a vegetarian puts you at a disadvantage,” Ms. Crosley said. “You’re in the most basic category of finicky. Even women who order chicken, it isn’t enough.”...

When Paris Hilton was arrested for driving under the influence, she announced that she had been on her way to In-N-Out Burger, the Southern California chain revered for its gut-busting Double-Double, as if trying to satisfy a craving for two slabs of meat and cheese was an excuse for drunken driving that anyone could understand...

Of course, there are always those rare women who order what they want and to heck with what a man might think.

Saehee Hwang, 30, a production director at, found herself out with friends at DuMont restaurant in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, when she started feeling attracted to a new guy in the group. She said she had wanted to order a burger, but started having second thoughts. “I didn’t want to appear too much of a carnivore,” she said. “It might be off-putting.”

But then she decided she should not change her order to fit a preconceived idea of what a man might want. She ordered the house specialty, a half-pound of beef on a toasted brioche bun with Gruyère cheese. “We started dating afterward,” Ms. Hwang said. “And he told me he liked the fact that I ordered the burger.”
More proof that essential needs and wants live on, despite a century of modern brainwashing, and that men love women with generous appetites, and generous curves.

Last edited by HSG : 9th August 2007 at 12:43. Reason: URL amended
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Old 9th August 2007   #2
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Default Re: ''Be yourselves - order what you want''

I think it is a well known fact that women with generous appetites tend to have generous appetitites in all areas, and are considered, by some men, to be more amorous. I've actually had men tell me that fuller figured women are more sensual for this very reason.

Perhaps the truly seductive message in ordering a sumptuous steak on a date is that you deny yourself nothing the physical world has to offer?
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Old 17th August 2007   #3
Join Date: March 2006
Location: Portland, OR
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Default Re: ''Be yourselves - order what you want''

Originally Posted by Erika
I think it is a well known fact that women with generous appetites tend to have generous appetitites in all areas, and are considered, by some men, to be more amorous.

Perhaps the truly seductive message in ordering a sumptuous steak on a date is that you deny yourself nothing the physical world has to offer?

I've heard this said as well and I know that men in southern Europe and the Caribbean have this view. Eating good food and drink is one of life's most pleasurable experiences. Woman have been denied the right to feel good about having a normal appetite for food for a long time. We have been trained to think that certain foods are good and other foods are bad but food is food. It exists to nourish and give pleasure. I'm glad more women are getting away from feeling ashamed to eat a steak or a burger. A good sign of things to come.
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Old 24th August 2007   #4
M. Lopez
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Default Re: ''Be yourselves - order what you want''

Here's a cute little fluff piece that found in the press today, which fits in with this thread. A Hispanic actress enthuses that she and her fellow Latinas "have curves" and love to "eat a lot." It's nice to hear women openly acknowledging their appetites this way, unapologetically:


2007-08-24 13:23:57

Latin star KATE DEL CASTILLO is helping men looking for a Mexican girlfriend by listing her top dating tips - and has warned Latin girls can be heavy drinkers.

The actress - who stars with Kevin Kline in upcoming movie Trade - also advises men not to take advantage on the first date.

She says, "We have curves, so don't freak out if we eat a lot. We are not sleeping with you on the first date. Kissing is not a prelude to sex. Bring enough money when you invite us to dinner. Never ask us to pay. Don't ever take us to a Mexican restaurant.

"Don't try to keep up with our drinking. You'll regret it in the morning."
As for drinking, to each her own - but I appreciate the fact that while she associates eating generously with a romantic evening, she simultaneously emphasizes the traditional feminine values of chastity and modesty.

Any gentleman, already enticed by a vixen's curves, and even more attracted by her self-indulgent tendencies, will be further seduced by her coyness and reserve. Those timeless feminine principles of ladylike behaviour developed over the centuries for good reason - they are very romantic, and fulfilling to both individuals in a relationship.
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Old 29th October 2007   #5
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Default Re: ''Be yourselves - order what you want''

"Everything old is new again." This reporter has expressed a timeless truth, and yet because it has been forgotten for the past century, it has become a novelty.

The notion that men are attracted to women who indulge themselves freely would have been self-evident in any century prior to our own. In Classical mythology, Venus, the goddess of beauty, is attended (and kept well-fed) by Ceres, the goddess of food. This link between feminine beauty and generous indulgence was recognized throughout Western history.

As we have previously noted on this forum, a significant portion of the publicity surrounding 19th-century actress Lillian Russell consisted in the enthusiastic descriptions of her immoderate meals. Lillian's promotional photographs often show her in the midst of a dining experience. The press of Lillian's day eagerly reported on her appetitive qualities, much the way that today's entertainment media describes the palatial homes or expensive jewellery of present-day celebrities.

We initially discussed Lillian's love of food in this thread, which also included testimony from Lillian's contemporaries on how attractive they found her unabashedly greedy nature.

The reason for the link between Venus and Ceres, between beauty and indulgence, is not hard to divine. There is something indescribably captivating about the contrast between the soft, golden-hair appearance of a timeless beauty (which implies angelic qualities, a touch of the divine), and the raw passion that a lavish appetite betokens (testifying to an insatiable, this-worldly desire for physical pleasure).

A self-indulgent beauty embodies a union of the spiritual and the corporeal, the celestial and the human, the Blessed Virgin and the goddess Venus. Her craving for food suggests that beneath her gentle, delicate demeanour there lurks a wild, passionate side--an appetitive aspect that the angel can barely keep in check.

To her acolytes, the sight of a goddess indulging herself is thus an extraordinary privilege. It is a glimpse of her undisguised self, a rare moment when she sets aside her composure--removes the halo, as it were--and allows her physical being free reign.

Lillian in a contemporary publicity photograph, showing off the full, rounded arms for which she was celebrated.

- Lillian, the "corn-fed love goddess"

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